Is communism good or evil?

[AltruismAndCake]

If you manage to read this before posting or voting, congrats. The main point of this thread is to see how many people actually read instead of jumping to conclusions. If you want to prove that you actually read, vote "Blarg"... or you can choose not to and rig the polls in favor of my opinion that people don't care xD. Vote now and vote bold!

[GISED_Link]

Русский дорога

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37l7P5V1eXU

Kromunismus Ise Goode Mine Broder

[Chibill]

It's good on paper nor so much when actually used.

[jxu]

tl;dr

It's an extreme oversimplification to call a system "evil" or "good".

[Xray_Doc]

Make a Facism and anarchy choice

[AltruismAndCake]

GISED_Link - lol the song sounds happy and then you read the lyrics ;-;
Chibill - I remember hearing that from somewhere I just don't know where...
Whats-your-name - tl;dr? even if it's sarcasm LOL
Xray_Doc - sorry this poll is about communism, Facism, anarchy, and capitalism (is that even a government?) can be debated but not voted on... unless your talking about facist-communism or anarcho-communism xD

btw anarcho-capitalism is real? lol wot

[Chibill]

Also it looks good because everyone is equal till you get to the part where unlike on paper people are greedy.

[AltruismAndCake]

Also it looks good because everyone is equal till you get to the part where unlike on paper people are greedy.

You mean capitalism? LOLOL sorry i had to.

[Xray_Doc]

I mean, it might not be better but capitalism has lasted longer than communism

[jxu]

Capitalism has gone hand in hand with the greatest rise in standard of living in human history - we are now able to live lives infinitely more comfortable than before.
What can I say about communism? The "success" speaks for itself

[AltruismAndCake]

I'm going to be honest. Please don't take this as me being angry or inflamed about the subject.

Is capitalism really the reason for the greatest rise of the standard of living? People can afford to buy a plasma screen TV. Congrats. Does it make them happy?

WARNING SOB STORY AHEAD
In my dad's days he lived in a poor family that couldn't buy him new clothes, so he had hand-me-down bell bottom pants. They constantly complained about not having enough money. And when he grew up? He still gets paid only a little bit more than his parents 30 years ago and prices have quadrupled since then. If, in the 70s, they believe they were in a depression, what are we in now?

I suppose the main complaint I have against capitalism is it's heartless, soulless, usual comes with consumerism, and contains two tiers of people: the workers and those that produce the work for greater profit

BTW I don't agree with communism being forced on people, I believe it should be a voluntary process, where those who want to share, share.

Take from it what you will.

[TSO]

Sorry I didn't get a chance to pm you, but this was absolutely hilarious.

[AltruismAndCake]

Np TSO, glad you like it

I'll try to be a little less serious about this discussion. After all it's obvious that a theocracy is the best way to go. What could possibly go wrong with an all powerful, all knowing entity entity ruling over us for our own good?

[TSO]

How that is any different from a dictatorship is beyond my comprehension, but sure, we'll go with that.

[Guy1234567890]

It's good on paper nor so much when actually used.

Yep

[greatgamer34]

i believe in a republic over a democracy. Fuck communism. I want to have a say in things..

[AltruismAndCake]

BTW has anyone ever read Karl Marx's paper? I can't find a copy of it. If we are attacking him, we should at the very least see what he said, instead of basing attacks on stuff passed through somebody who knows somebody that reads Wikipedia, which gets their sources from who knows where xD

GG - I agree Republic>Democracy. Did you know some communist countries call themselves a Democratic Republic? It's bologna to me because none of the communist countries are Democratic or Republic.

If I understand correctly, Marx says that capitalisms are all headed to communism and that communism can only be obtained via a capitalism that has freedoms in politics and religion, he's not saying you should revolt to speed up the proccess. What he is saying, is that the working class will get fed up, choose someone (peacefully) that WILL work in their interests (liberals <- lol we hate their politics, including me). After the working class is equal with the class providing the work and all resistance is given up, the government will fade into insignificance. Once the government is insignificant THEN and ONLY THEN will communism be achieved. He's saying it's a proccess that happens, not something that is create through war.

Of course this is all idealism to me and I don't agree with all of it, but since when was it decided that capitalism is the best thing ever? People say there are no alternatives, the rest is worse, but capitalism IS a broken system, so why can't something better be made? Republic capitalism provides freedom, is that because of or in spite of capitalism?

TSO - no NSA reference? I set it up for you and you failed to make a joke xD

[Xray_Doc]

This guy is definitely a communist who is trying to force his ideals onto us

[AltruismAndCake]

This guy is definitely a communist who is trying to force his ideals onto us

Yeah he even said so himself, we should definitely ban him!

[greatgamer34]

i have no sheep, you have 7, i want 3 and 1/2 sheep from you...

[AltruismAndCake]

i have no sheep, you have 7, i want 3 and 1/2 sheep from you...

more like i have no sheep and an empty stomach, you have enough for your family for 5 generations, why can't you share one?

I'm not posting this stuff because I believe in communism, but because I believe there should be creative critical thinking involved in our arguments. So far all I'm seeing is rehashed one liners. BTW who actually read the first post before voting? Interesting stuff I tell you :3

TSO apparently you're the only one who was able to convince me about ICA when I was clearly wrong. Can you convince on this topic too, or are you not touching this argument? :3

To all who complain about my opinion... THIS... IS... SHENANIGANS! *kick*

[Nuuppanaani]

[AltruismAndCake]

You underestimate my powers

[greatgamer34]

i. just. died. I went through the cash in a box picture like 40 times in my head...

[jxu]

WARNING SOB STORY AHEAD
In my dad's days he lived in a poor family that couldn't buy him new clothes, so he had hand-me-down bell bottom pants. They constantly complained about not having enough money.

Have you forgotten the long bread lines in Russia or the mass starvation of peasants in China?

[AltruismAndCake]

WARNING SOB STORY AHEAD
In my dad's days he lived in a poor family that couldn't buy him new clothes, so he had hand-me-down bell bottom pants. They constantly complained about not having enough money.

Have you forgotten the long bread lines in Russia or the mass starvation of peasants in China?

No I haven't forgotten that, I thought I mentioned that those aren't considered communist countries by those using Marx definition or people who actually believe in communism. Your attacking a straw man. If someone says they're believe and follow nihilism and then tell all others that they are evil for believing otherwise, are they really a nihilist? If a claims to be a law abiding citizen, and then guns down people in front of you, are they really law abiding? If someone starts a revolution in the name of communism, kills people on purpose, and instates a dictatorship to "watch over" the people to make sure they obey "communism", are they really a communist instating communism? Doesn't the idea of needing people to watch over communism mean that you are instating a class system? The watchers and the watched?

As far as I understand, there are three views on communism: one is the kind that you incite rebellion with. The second is the kind Marx describe, which isn't a government at all, it's what he believes is a natural progression of things (capitalism -> angry workers -> liberalism -> communism) Note that, according to his theory, there has never been a true communism. Finally there's the third, which is voluntary communism, people willingly share all/most of what they have with each other. These have existed LONG ago, and worked just fine throughout history.

BTW one-liner much? (yes i'm instigating you)

On a more positive note, good job on the probability question, yes that is the right answer

[jxu]

The first and third you describe are not valid categories. You could say the regimes in China and Russia aren't "real communism", just as your dad not having enough money isn't "real capitalism". Community sharing has existed for thousands of years in tribes and small villages, but try to build a complex governmental institution out of it. "But it could work if it was done properly! It would be amazing!" I wait for the day the amazing arrives.

[Xray_Doc]

Haha le 9 geg maymays

[AltruismAndCake]

The first and third you describe are not valid categories.

The first and third examples of belief vs fact or the examples of communism?

You could say the regimes in China and Russia aren't "real communism", just as your dad not having enough money isn't "real capitalism".

But then your whole argument for capitalism goes out the window doesn't it? You said that capitalism led to the greatest increase in standard of living, but if there's no "real capitalism" then how do the two statements co-exist? If your argument is that capitalism gets better as it becomes more pure, what is your recommendation to make the current capitalism more pure?

Community sharing has existed for thousands of years in tribes and small villages, but try to build a complex governmental institution out of it.

Then don't... simple as that.

I wait for the day the amazing arrives.

I'm pretty certainly it won't happen in our lifetimes... I'm not saying that as a pessimist or in anger, but as someone who thinks most people are just drifting through life, cruise control, questioning nothing that really matters... just arguing over shallow things, maybe like we are now...

[AFtExploision]

Communism is great as a concept. Notice the as a concept. The problem is, Marxist communism does not work with actual humans. For a communist system to work, you'd need a strong government / agency that would moderate the economy. Yes, it theoretically has a 0 unemployment rate because everyone is assigned a job, but it doesn't allow for motivation or competition that creates new innovation. Also, every government that has attempted communism has turned totalitarian, and that's no good. Perhaps a mixed economy is the best, such as modern day China has.

Communism also presents a question: If I'm the one that earned / inherited this wealth, why does anyone else have a right to it? This is the flaw most people have with Communism, and why people are resentful of it. Face it, communism has a pretty bad track record showing that it doesn't work without free market elements.

[TSO]

BTW has anyone ever read Karl Marx's paper? I can't find a copy of it. If we are attacking him, we should at the very least see what he said, instead of basing attacks on stuff passed through somebody who knows somebody that reads Wikipedia, which gets their sources from who knows where xD

TSO - no NSA reference? I set it up for you and you failed to make a joke xD

I thought we were discussing religion, so I went with comparing God to Fidel Castro as the joke.

Also, I happen to have the entire communist manifesto on hand. (Don't bother asking why, because I won't tell you.)

[jxu]

have a copy of the communist manifesto?

2edgy
#rebellion
#anonymous

[AltruismAndCake]

I refreshed my browser to see if there were new responses. If you want my point of view on what you said Aft just ask, but I felt responding to TSO was a bit more important atm.

Thank you TSO, know they have a valid target to attack

I thought we were discussing religion, so I went with comparing God to Fidel Castro as the joke.

I was discussing religion but left it worded for a nice joke. Still a nice joke btw. Here's a mind bender:
If perfect power corrupts, does perfect weakness make pure?
God = evil and people = good?

So far I see references of violence, so I'm sure if many people can misunderstand it, but it appears that the bourgeois (ruling class) uses the working class's violence against their enemies. AFAIK the way communism is spread is by oppression of the working class. A quote from the manifesto:

The theoretical conclusions of the Communists are in no way based on ideas or principles that have been invented, or discovered, by this or that would-be universal reformer.
They merely express, in general terms, actual relations springing from an existing class struggle, from a historical movement going on under our very eyes.

Although I must say that the future communism entails isn't very pleasant. It seems to say that by the time communism is achieved, the ruling class has beaten all the heart and soul out of the people. Not a very pleasant thought.

[AFtExploision]

Religion is related to communism?

[greatgamer34]

Religion is related to communism?

religion is related to everything.

[TSO]

Communism I'd distinctly anti-religion, so yes, they are related.

I love how every time I come to this thread, the percentage of people that vote correctly goes down.

[AFtExploision]

Why is this in shenanigans

[AltruismAndCake]

Communism I'd distinctly anti-religion, so yes, they are related.

It doesn't have to be.

Why is this in shenanigans

Because I put it here. Did you read the OP? I never expected a serious debate to start happening xD

[AFtExploision]

Do you wants a move?!

[AltruismAndCake]

Do you wants a move?!

Nah all these capitalists are jokers anyways.

jk jk

I'll leave that decision to you. As long as it's in the right category I'm fine.

---

OK maybe I was antagonizing a bit. Sorry

[TSO]

Aft, you are clearly among the people that this thread is focused on. If you read the op, you would understand that this thread well and truly belongs in this section.

[AFtExploision]

How is it focused on meh? ;_________;

[AFtExploision]

GISED_Link - lol the song sounds happy and then you read the lyrics ;-;
Chibill - I remember hearing that from somewhere I just don't know where...
Whats-your-name - tl;dr? even if it's sarcasm LOL
Xray_Doc - sorry this poll is about communism, Facism, anarchy, and capitalism (is that even a government?) can be debated but not voted on... unless your talking about facist-communism or anarcho-communism xD

btw anarcho-capitalism is real? lol wot

Capitalism and communism are economic systems.
Facism and anarchy are political systems.

[jxu]

Look a little closer, this thread is actually titled "Do we like Aft or not".

Economic systems and political systems are tied together, each support and need each other to function. It's really a gray area.

[AFtExploision]

Yes, but they be different. Communism does not mean totalitarian capitalism doesn't mean republic

[GISED_Link]

Capitalism has gone hand in hand with the greatest rise in standard of living in human history - we are now able to live lives infinitely more comfortable than before.

As long as the Chinese working for you, Captialism is the best. But one day... when you'll work for China, capitalism will probably be the worst system ever XD

[AFtExploision]

China is a mix of communism and capitalism (called a Mixed economy). The reason China has become so big at manufacturing is because it became a mixed economy, it would never of gotten so large on just communism. North Korea is the only true communism left

[LordDecapo]

Problem with it now a days is that if we did naturally progress to that point as you are saying, majority of the people in the world would starve to dead. We have so many people in big cities already and the only way to house them and ship food in there is by having multiple companies ship goods into heavily populated areas. And unless u have a truly willing to be fair person in charge then the only way to get that done cheaper is that those companies compete and aren't allowed to monopollize, as monopolies are VERY bad 9 times out of 10.. then u have a quick shift back to capitalism, it will start small and grow..

So could u say it is a cycle?
BTW that was just a random example I thought of

[jxu]

The US and European countries function as mixed economies too. It's just that in China, the state plays a bigger role. I'm not sure what LordDecapo is trying to say, but a properly functioning capitalism makes sure to prohibit monopolies by using the government's power. The gov. also plays a role in stabilizing the economy in boom/bust times in Keynesian thought

[AFtExploision]

Mixed economy is best economy

[VirtualPineapple]

just like salad

[AFtExploision]

Yes. With olive garden salad dressing. ANd those breadsticks. Food.

[GISED_Link]

Trotskisme !

[AFtExploision]

A word I don't know!

[jxu]

That's because it's not an English word.

[AFtExploision]

D: D: D:

[GISED_Link]

Do you know Trotski ?

un comuniste -> communisme //fr
a Communist ->communism //en

un trotskiste -> trotskisme //fr
a Trotskyite -> Trotskyism //en

Trotskyism != communism

[AFtExploision]

TROTSKY

[GISED_Link]

Ah, in french it is i and in english y.... lol