(POLL) Merging School with Build

[PNWMan]

This has been a hot topic for a while now, and I feel we needed a forum post on it. In one of my replies to cut's post about faulty admin standards, I've suggested merging school with build. This has certain advantages and disadvantages.

I personally was never on the RDF sadly, however, I hear a lot from people who were. They say the reason that the RDF school died was because the school was isolated from the build server. With ORE, school is also isolated, however, it's doing somewhat ok. But recently, there has been a shortage of teachers (I myself am guilty) and staff to review apps/promote. Even builders hardly go on there anymore. A good analogy is of a stew. The students are raw meat, the school is a pot, the teachers are the burner, and lessons/learning is the heat. Right now, there is a shortage of "heat" and the "raw meat" is just sitting there, spoiling in the "pot." This isn't to say students might as well be raw meat, that's just mean and incorrect.

Merging school and build will allow students full access to teachers, builders, and staff. Instead of a confusing 2 servers, having to switch back and forth looking for someone, students can simply ask on the server they are on. The school will THRIVE and be filled with learning, teaching, and productiveness.

However, there is a downside. Students can sometimes be, well, annoying. Build is a wonderful haven for builders (and even the cool students) to hang out and get away from the insanity. If we merge the two, there will be no chill spot; thus, stricter rules on such annoying behavior must be put in place.

Another disadvantage is that teachers and members have their own large scale projects (even complicated small scale) and like to do their own thing, or be with friends. If students are nagging them to teach all of the time, members won't get that peace, quiet, and alone time they need.

I still suggest we merge school with build, but we have much stricter rules on school as far as bad behavior. This isn't to say students can't have fun, but they need to tone down caps, derps, spam, etc. In order for school to be merged with build. Possibly separate chat, but I honestly don't think that would be a good idea.

Another thing to help students annoying members/teachers is to just have 1 or 2 big mass lessons, with a large audience of students learning in a lesson/multilesson. This will reduce the amount of lessons given, but increase the amount of things each student knows.

Please post more advantages, disadvantages, concerns, and whatnot if you so please. This is an important matter to be seriously considered after the ORE blackout.

[LordDecapo]

Make them 2 sperate worlds on the same server, with a shared spawn location. would solve a lot of issues

[scrounchtike]

Also, each world should have its own chat. It might seem obvious, but its an important aspect of the server.

[EDevil]

Also, each world should have its own chat. I say it because its important to me

We actually did quite a lot of work to make cross-server chat available... :/

[scrounchtike]

Well EDevil, maybe we could do like that school and build again. Staff or Mods(if implemented) could merge chat, or not. I guess that works too.

[PhysoniumI]

Merging chat would get super spammy. Something like Bungie Cord would work well to tie the servers together easily, also allowing the possibility for cross-server chat (if I remember right when I looked at it) WITHOUT a custom plugin (saving you work).

[Iceglade]

I don't really have much opinion on this issue, but please, please don't permanently merge the chat...

[LordDecapo]

I don't really have much opinion on this issue, but please, please don't permanently merge the chat...

[greatgamer34]

and staff to review apps/promote

What, take a look at the completed student apps... Tyler and I, and even other admins have been completing as many as possible!

[LordDecapo]

and staff to review apps/promote

What, take a look at the completed student apps... Tyler and I, and even other admins have been completing as many as possible!

Your missing the point, you get on and just do a bunch at once, which means individuals have to wait till the next mass app review time. Which is sometimes days and days.

[greatgamer34]

Well when im on and have access to minecraft, that is usually when they get done.

Your missing the point, you get on and just do a bunch at once, which means individuals have to wait till the next mass app review time. Which is sometimes days and days

this is some what true. but would you rather them not be done at all?? Its not really missing the point because they all get done.

I cant be on all day every day( i have somewhat of a life between work and other jobs).

I also cannot be on the very moment someone does a school app. And I wont accept a school app without promoting the applicant also. This system keeps the application section clean.

As an admin, it is impossible to satisfy everyone. I am sorry for the inconvenience of school apps.

[redstonewarrior]

As an admin, it is impossible to satisfy everyone. I am sorry for the inconvenience of school apps.

Often, but we can try to do better. Seeing as ORE's in an uproar, I think you have plenty of pressure for that.
We've actually been talking about this for a while. Here's my inactive / naive list of pros/cons we thought of:
Pros:

• Everybody is on one server. Easier management.
  
• Simplicity of transport.
  
• Mixed school-level and builder-level plots.
  

Cons:

• This requires one heavy host to lift school and build.
  
• Spammy chat, harder to channel.
  
• Mixed school-level and build-level plots.
  

... A little shorter than that should be, but here are some ideas:

• Variable sized plots. We can allocate regions of the map for school maps, and have the same 128x256x128 plots for students.
  
• Channel chat. Not an easy solution to work out.
  
• Freebuild area?
  
• Direct student -> member transition? Integrated app system? (Mixed school/build?)
  

I am inactive, rather tired, and naive. Take these with a grain of salt. If tyler's crying over implementation details, I've gone too far.

[tyler569]

Mixed school-level and build-level plots.

Just whipped this up
http://i.imgur.com/mC4nspc.png

Channel chat. Not an easy solution to work out.

Not as hard as you think, I had a nice system on the RDF that could be ported to Python or Java which would probably be pretty perfect for us without Jessassin's "EVERYONE MUST BE IN MAIN CHAT" attitude.

Disclaimer: I understood and agreed with his reasoning on that, but its probably better for the community to ignore it at this point.

[redstonewarrior]

...
Just whipped this up
http://i.imgur.com/mC4nspc.png

Yep! Exactly that. I wouldn't go for one quadrant, either more spread out or regions that aren't so fixed. Matter of opinion.

...
Not as hard as you think, I had a nice system on the RDF that could be ported to Python or Java which would probably be pretty perfect for us without Jessassin's "EVERYONE MUST BE IN MAIN CHAT" attitude.

Disclaimer: I understood and agreed with his reasoning on that, but its probably better for the community to ignore it at this point.

I meant "It'd be tricky to build good policy for this." I wouldn't say it's ignoring his logic, I would say that the logic is context dependent and that we're dealing with inabsolutes.

[PhysoniumI]

Maybe something like this to intermingle the community?


The generation may be difficult and there's a relatively even ratio (red = member, blue = nonmember (4 plots per blue). It'd be 5/4. Broke it up into sets so it's readable.

Each black "block" would be 256x and each blue would be 4 (2x2) 128x areas.

Distributes students and allows for getting multiple adjacent plots for large projects.

EDIT: Sorry for it being kinda large, not sure how to use all the forum features

[xdot]

Channel chat. Not an easy solution to work out.

Not as hard as you think, I had a nice system on the RDF that could be ported to Python or Java which would probably be pretty perfect for us without Jessassin's "EVERYONE MUST BE IN MAIN CHAT" attitude.

Disclaimer: I understood and agreed with his reasoning on that, but its probably better for the community to ignore it at this point.

https://github.com/OpenRedstoneEngineers...nelChat.py

[Crazyninja2000]

i think we should keep seperate servers. if not, muli maps. to get to build, do /mvtp build, school, /mvtp school. and a main hub that also has the trail plots. it is effeicent and you dont need to get a new plot on school.

[tyler569]

https://github.com/OpenRedstoneEngineers...nelChat.py

Played around with that one a bit, I think it could do with some cleanup, I'm interested to see what you think of the structure of mine:
https://github.com/Jessassin/RDF-CH/blob...s/main.msa
(you don't have to look at the mscript, docs are in main.msa near the top, admin stuff's documented around line 60sh)

[tokumei]

Another solution to channel chat: Take advantage of Essentials shout commands. Not everyone will need to hear what you're saying all the time, just the people near you that you're helping/co-oping with. Ofc, staff would be able to hear everything if they so wish (like a social spy toggle)

[slugdude]

Regarding the plot layout, previous designs have had some of these problems:
- Students having no student neighbours
- Complicated patterns
- Build and school plots too seperated.
- Ratio of school:build plots unbalanced

JWN came up with a design that I beleive does not have these problems - Some people who go on the temp. build server may have seen this. Here it is:


It follows a simple pattern, has a 1:1 ratio of plots while build plots have both build and school neighbours, while school plots have both build and school neighbours aswell.

[redstonewarrior]

Problems with the above: Plots no longer have their cleannnnnn mod 256 rounding. This makes RSW cry.
Two other ideas:
Night-movement style grid.
Dynamic allocation.

In dynamic allocation, we reserve a build-sized plot whenever we run out of school plots. (Next available plot, spiraling outwards, or next to a good teacher.) When groups of four student plots (one build plot) are deserted, we can recycle them as school or build plots. This lets people have any size of contiguous build plots, allows students to be near teachers, and doesn't create a giant school region.

[slugdude]

In dynamic allocation, we reserve a build-sized plot whenever we run out of school plots. (Next available plot, spiraling outwards, or next to a good teacher.) When groups of four student plots (one build plot) are deserted, we can recycle them as school or build plots. This lets people have any size of contiguous build plots, allows students to be near teachers, and doesn't create a giant school region.

Could this process be automated or would staff have to manage it?
(Or worse... Students managing it)

[tyler569]

Could this process be automated or would staff have to manage it?

If administrating it is simple enough, it wouldn't matter (easy to script, easy to do)

(Or worse... Students managing it)

No.

[slugdude]

(Or worse... Students managing it)

No.

RSW actually suggested that on the server. I think it was along the lines of "yeah I guess we could get students to sort it"

[redstonewarrior]

(Or worse... Students managing it)

No.

RSW actually suggested that on the server. I think it was along the lines of "yeah I guess we could get students to sort it"

Not really, meh.

[Crazyninja2000]

The reason i don't want to be next to students is not generally i don't like them, it's that whenever i'm on(i am a teacher btw), they are always like "teach me teach me teach me!!!". i just want to build my machines in peace without having to hear that every 5 minutes.

[Iceglade]

This thread is, quite frankly, ridiculous at this point. If it's already been decided that this merge is going to happen, oh well, but please close it.

The reason i don't want to be next to students is not generally i don't like them, it's that whenever i'm on(i am a teacher btw), they are always like "teach me teach me teach me!!!". i just want to build my machines in peace without having to hear that every 5 minutes.

Exxxxxxxactly. None of us want to listen to that (I don't think). But it doesn't matter where the plot is, people communicate through chat, for which there's no difference whether you have the next plot over or if you're on the other side of the map. For lack of a less overly dramatic sense, there's no escape... I believe that was one of the reasons school was seperate in the first place. And if we add chat channels then we've just completely defeated the purpose of having members available to students at any given time.

Generally, the sentiment is "if it's not broken, fixing it will break it". I see absolutely nothing wrong with the level of student activity currently (as a teacher I have plenty to do when online.) This system has worked and never become a problem in the past year or more of ORE's existence, why are we throwing wrenches in it now?

[PabloDons]

^^ very good point. Also the chat... school chat is so full of teachers explaining things (when they are actually on). nobody but students are really interested in reading that. I have been on the school server while the build has been down and boy do I gotta say, the spam ;_; the chat is completely uninteresting from that point out and it's going to get in the way for typical build chat

[slugdude]

the spam ;_; the chat is completely uninteresting from that point out and it's going to get in the way for typical build chat

hence the idea of channeling the chat.

I think the merge will be a ood thing since people who may not even know each other are brought together.

I think channelling the chat would be good, prehaps there are 2 channels, build and school, but you can be in both at the same time. Also prehaps staff would have access to a private staff chat and be able to speak globally?

^ just some ideas fot the chat

[Iceglade]

the spam ;_; the chat is completely uninteresting from that point out and it's going to get in the way for typical build chat

hence the idea of channeling the chat.

I think the merge will be a good thing since people who may not even know each other are brought together.

I think channelling the chat would be good, prehaps there are 2 channels, build and school, but you can be in both at the same time. Also prehaps staff would have access to a private staff chat and be able to speak globally?

^ just some ideas fot the chat

I don't understand this. If we're now doing this for social reasons, I'm quite sure that builders who want to meet new people on school are capable of going to the other server, and students who want to see what happens on build are equally capable of a) joining the other server or b) applying. I don't see the so-called gap between the school community and the build community, and besides, if we make chat channels then we can use the exact same argument that the community is seperated. I stand by my opinion that this is change for the sake of change.

[PhysoniumI]

If you channel chat, 99% of the builders would be in builder chat only.

[Crazyninja2000]

The whole point of the merge is too link chat. channeling chat would just bring to the problem of all the students going to the build channel asking for help, back to where we started.

[Iceglade]

The whole point of the merge is too link chat. channeling chat would just bring to the problem of all the students going to the build channel asking for help, back to where we started.

And if we link chat, then students are in the linked chat asking for help, back to where we started. I'm too tired to go into any more gory detail.

[jxu]

The whole point of the merge is too link chat. channeling chat would just bring to the problem of all the students going to the build channel asking for help, back to where we started.

I don't think the chat was the main point. The point is that builders/teachers don't have to switch servers to help people. With OREbuild and OREschool on IRC the chats are already linked.

[Crazyninja2000]

I heard that the point was to link the chat cuz everyone kept turning it off on IRC. but the link chat does get pretty spammy, i think we should just encourage people to visit school once in a while. Also when the build server crashes, we all go to school, and since i dont build stuff there, is just say "does anyone wanna learn something".

[greatgamer34]

i think merging school with build would work, but...It should be students in one area of the world and builders on the other side. Otherwise, whats the point on having it be called a student rank, when all they dont have is World Edit.

I think this would be the easiest way to do something like this.
Just load it up in an MV world called "School", and have build in an MV world called "Build".

Simple enough.

Also, leave chat alone, admins can mute/kick/ban spamming players. Leave chat connected so all students can talk to all members, and vice versa.

There is literally no need no continue this argument because there will be always someone who is 'unhappy'.

[Iceglade]

There is literally no need no continue this argument because there will be always someone who is 'unhappy'.

There is literally no need no continue this argument because there will be always someone who is 'unhappy'.

[jxu]

There is literally no need no continue this argument because there will be always someone who is 'unhappy'.

There is literally no need no continue this argument because there will be always someone who is 'unhappy'.

Greatgamer's opinion doesn't count in this.
It's not about making everyone happy, it's about maximizing happiness.

[redstonewarrior]

Greatgamer's opinion doesn't count in this.
It's not about making everyone happy, it's about maximizing happiness.

Utilitarianism is a scary tool...

[jxu]

Please don't consider me a Stewart Mill
Democracy is focused on what the majority of people are concerned about - though in this case I don't think there's an important difference between most people happy and most happiness (to quiet those annoying people)
I don't advocate in any way utilitarianism

[redstonewarrior]

Please don't consider me a Stewart Mill
Democracy is focused on what the majority of people are concerned about - though in this case I don't think there's an important difference between most people happy and most happiness (to quiet those annoying people)
I don't advocate in any way utilitarianism

Depending on the election system, democracy might only satisfy the largest group...
I might want to stop getting off topic.

[Apuly]

I feel like, if the main reason why we are merging school and build is to merge the chat, than a more advanced IRC chat link would be the best solution. It would be easier and quicker to implement new servers, and (I think) is easier to make, since most script kitties on this server have their own chatbot.

[jxu]

The whole point of the merge is too link chat. channeling chat would just bring to the problem of all the students going to the build channel asking for help, back to where we started.

I don't think the chat was the main point. The point is that builders/teachers don't have to switch servers to help people. With OREbuild and OREschool on IRC the chats are already linked.

[JWNJWN]

In my opinion, if the servers were to get merged it would be to tighten the community not just so that chatting between them would be easier. Merging the servers would be used as a tool to not have 2 separate communities, Build and School, but to have one unified community where the players helped each other, instead of doing whatever we do now.

[Crazyninja2000]

I think this would be the easiest way to do something like this.
Just load it up in an MV world called "School", and have build in an MV world called "Build".

Simple enough.

that was my idea. it would let the builders build, but let the students get their help easily. it would still tighten the community, but give the builders some space from spammy students.

[Jupperware]

As a Student I do not particularly want the two to merge. I haven't been around very long, but I think having separate spaces is important. If I ever become a Builder I will want to be able to escape to a quiet world without jerk offs and annoying visitors asking when their app will be done.

It would definitely be easier to manage one unified server, and the Students would have more access to Teachers, Builders, and Staff. That being said, it seems to me that most Builders have projects going on in the School server. I suspect that they don't go to the Build server because they have nothing to do in the School, but because they do not want to be accessed by the Students.

I agree with PNW that lessons would be more advantageous for the Students and easier for the Teachers if mass lessons were held. But this can be done in the School server with or without a merge.

Some Students that are a little immature or annoying can become more serious and dedicated over time. But merging would mean kicking them out at the beginning and not giving them the opportunity to learn, and possibly robbing the build server of a potentially good candidate.

Just some thoughts.

[Neogreenyew]

Just keep it how it was before build died unless physical overhead for the servers is costing too much then merge them on one server or something.

[PNWMan]

Some Students that are a little immature or annoying can become more serious and dedicated over time. But merging would mean kicking them out at the beginning and not giving them the opportunity to learn, and possibly robbing the build server of a potentially good candidate.

You've put into words what has been in my head. I do feel that this issue could be diminished with an intermediate chat realm that visitors are unable to access.

I should explain my concept of an intermediate chat:
It has 3 levels: Build, School, and Combined. Visitors and students (no matter whether on build or school) can ONLY join combined chat and school chat. Anyone else (including the short-lived Testificates) can join any chat they wish.